Speaker 1: Hello the Internet, and welcome to season to fifty five,
Speaker 1: episode three of dirty production of I heart radio. This
Speaker 1: is a podcast where we take a deep dive into
Speaker 1: American's share consciousness. And it is Wednesday, September, one Um so,
Speaker 1: nine to two, National Chai Day, National New York Day,
Speaker 1: national can cookie day or pecan Cookie Day, depending on
Speaker 1: how you pronounced cans as the as the main feature
Speaker 1: in a cookie. Pickhan. Okay, I've never had if you
Speaker 1: can't cook, I guess what. Okay, so it's just like
Speaker 1: a sugar cookie with chopped up yeah, I always I
Speaker 1: always associate them with like those tins of cookies with
Speaker 1: that are mostly dust. Seemed to be the main like
Speaker 1: the very dry. Come to appreciate them in old age
Speaker 1: because you can like dunk them in coffee and stuff,
Speaker 1: but when I was a kid I was like, you're
Speaker 1: out spitting it again. There's desiccant Gel in my mouth. Yeah, anyways,
Speaker 1: my name is Jack O'Brien, a k potatoes O'Brien, and
Speaker 1: solidarity with, uh, you know, my Irish brethren who I
Speaker 1: understand are just trying to find direction in these first
Speaker 1: days after the Paper Day Queen Um so, where we're
Speaker 1: thinking of you and I'm thrilled to be joined, as always,
Speaker 1: by my co host, Mr Miles Grad this royal nab
Speaker 1: bill to sit there. Had to find somewhere stupid Charles
Speaker 1: could play sauceas fingers doing. They're creeping. Just don't make
Speaker 1: them use a fountain pen. The people, all y'all yearning
Speaker 1: for pound bury to be burning. Curving, coving, curving, coving,
Speaker 1: curving roads for funzies. Okay, shout out to the brew
Speaker 1: who obviously look. We're talking about Poundbury, the town that
Speaker 1: Prince Charles designed with roads that are just curved for
Speaker 1: no reason at all, which I believe. Did you say
Speaker 1: curving for FRENZIES, somebody? Yeah, Kurt, I think you said
Speaker 1: for Funzies, but DIS curving the roads for funzies. I'll
Speaker 1: take the FUNZIES, I mean. I mean it was a
Speaker 1: group effort, honestly. So I've shout out to Poundbury. If
Speaker 1: you live in the Houndbury, where Charles designed. I really
Speaker 1: am curious if we have a single listener in Poundbury. Um,
Speaker 1: but if, okay, if you are call in, you will
Speaker 1: be on the show. If you are one listener in Poundbury,
Speaker 1: the weird housing estate that Prince Charles. Just like know
Speaker 1: someone there. I want to, I want to like do
Speaker 1: have a listener. Go and like tell us what it
Speaker 1: what it's like. It sounds like facetime less from poundbury. Yeah, anyways, miles,
Speaker 1: we are thrilled to be joined by an acclaimed wildlife
Speaker 1: ecologist and conservation who specializes in researching how human activity
Speaker 1: influences the behavior of wild animals. She's the host of
Speaker 1: the PBS nature podcast going wild with Dr Ray WYNN grant,
Speaker 1: which makes sense because she is doctor Ray Winn Grant.
Speaker 1: I'm here, Doctor WYNN grant, doctor, doctor, Doctor. Is that cool?
Speaker 1: Just doctor, doctor, doctor, doctor, it is fine. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I was. I I did ask if I could call
Speaker 1: you doctor grant because I just, you know, for Jurassic Park,
Speaker 1: purpose of respect. Yeah, no, I love that, but you know,
Speaker 1: the answer is no, I can't like share the wind
Speaker 1: side of my whole family. Yeah, exactly, it makes sense.
Speaker 1: Makes Sense, and you did say Jurassic Park is a
Speaker 1: seminal film for you as well. Oh my gosh. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, what year did it come out? I don't know,
Speaker 1: but likee. Okay, I was eight years old. I definitely
Speaker 1: did not see it in theaters but probably like the
Speaker 1: next year when it was on Vhs, like it became
Speaker 1: my favorite. How could it not? Like I felt like
Speaker 1: I was one of those kids, like the blonde girl
Speaker 1: with the hair and the kitchen scene, you know, heart pumping,
Speaker 1: and then, of course, like I was a little baby
Speaker 1: nerd and like a wildlife nerd and like an extinction nerd.
Speaker 1: So I was super into the whole like concepts. Did
Speaker 1: I possibly also have like a very early sexual awakening
Speaker 1: with with some of the cast members, like in their
Speaker 1: iconic scenes? Possibly I had a little baby when that
Speaker 1: shirts open, when that shirts open, I was even like,
Speaker 1: is that how a man's body should look? Oh Gosh,
Speaker 1: she's injured and vulnerable. Come on with your with your
Speaker 1: nice tailored shirt open. We see you, Dr Malcolm, no wonder.
Speaker 1: I'm a scientist. I was curious, like sort of because
Speaker 1: you are, you know, you do this now for a
Speaker 1: living and you're you're great at what you do. That
Speaker 1: you are always had this interest in my mind. I
Speaker 1: was hoping, like the Jurassic Park completely kick this off
Speaker 1: for you, but it was just a goal, a light
Speaker 1: post on the way. Yeah, well, okay, so there's kind
Speaker 1: of like two angles to this story. Like there's a
Speaker 1: very basic one where, again, I was a little baby
Speaker 1: nerd and my favorite shows to watch on TV were
Speaker 1: nature shows, so like the David Attenborough, the Steve Irwin,
Speaker 1: like the you know, the classic like British Australian Nature Shows.
Speaker 1: Loved them. And so when I was a kid, people
Speaker 1: say what do you want to be when you grow up,
Speaker 1: and I'd say I want to be a nature show host,
Speaker 1: like I want to see wild animals. You know, I
Speaker 1: was from California. I didn't necessarily have this understanding that
Speaker 1: nature was like outside my door, like, you know, like
Speaker 1: thirty miles away, like I thought you have to like
Speaker 1: jump over oceans to get to the wilderness, and I
Speaker 1: was like the only way I can do that is
Speaker 1: to be a nature show host, because I did not
Speaker 1: have anyone in my like sphere who went into the wilderness.
Speaker 1: And so I was like nature show hosts do that
Speaker 1: for a living. That's what I want to do. I
Speaker 1: want to be up close and personal baled animals. That's
Speaker 1: the career. And so then like later, like college age,
Speaker 1: I learned that like Oh, there's like a science to that,
Speaker 1: like there's people who like study endangered species and developed
Speaker 1: the science to prevent their extinction. That was like a
Speaker 1: way more accessible career path than like being like the lucky,
Speaker 1: like Bingo winner who gets to be a nature show host,
Speaker 1: you know. So I latched onto that. The other way,
Speaker 1: I'll say it, is that like I was a child
Speaker 1: of the nineties, right. So, like we were getting all
Speaker 1: those fear tactics like thrown at us all the time, right,
Speaker 1: like like the dare officer would come to the playground
Speaker 1: and be like don't go trigger treating, like people are
Speaker 1: going to give you drugs free. Yeah, like it's going
Speaker 1: to be like free to dogs disguised as candy. You know,
Speaker 1: like be afraid of everything, and so I was super
Speaker 1: afraid of wildlife extinction. You know, it's like whales, you know,
Speaker 1: it's like save the whales, like save the pandas, like
Speaker 1: save like like eagles, like Bald Eagles are national. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like they were going extinct right, and so it was
Speaker 1: like super alarming and everything was alarming, but I kind
Speaker 1: of like latched onto that stuff and when I learned
Speaker 1: like there are people out there like creating solutions for this,
Speaker 1: I was like I have to be one of those people,
Speaker 1: like otherwise what are we gonna do, like a world
Speaker 1: no eagles, like I gotta help. So I've calmed down.
Speaker 1: Like these days I do it because I love it.
Speaker 1: I'm more relaxed. But it started kind of out of
Speaker 1: like a love for TV and then like a subsequent
Speaker 1: like nineties anxiety. Yeah, and did you also have like
Speaker 1: like those zoo books and stuff, or like those like
Speaker 1: those like animal file books that I remember my school library?
Speaker 1: Or like every month there would be like nudas seas
Speaker 1: on animals totally, and then I read like anamorphous books
Speaker 1: into animals like fight aliens and yeah, the whole thing.
Speaker 1: You were there. I'm just realizing it's weird that Jurassic Park,
Speaker 1: like of the scientists they bring to this expedition slash
Speaker 1: like testing out of the park. None of them are
Speaker 1: scientists that they bring to like dinosaur bones specialists. I
Speaker 1: know that she's actually a paleobotanist. She's a Paleobotanist, okay,
Speaker 1: and then a mathematician and a lawyer, and they don't
Speaker 1: bring anybody who like works with wild animals, which actually biologists. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it feels like a miss. Yeah, we need to remake
Speaker 1: we need like a like a docuse series. Yeah, the
Speaker 1: Real Jurassic Park, miss by Richard Attonborough, who is David
Speaker 1: attenborough's brother. All right, so the attenborough family very influential.
Speaker 1: Do you think there's a way? I mean, and I
Speaker 1: hate to just indulge, you use your professional knowledge to
Speaker 1: indulge my stupid question. Is there a way to do
Speaker 1: Jurassic Park responsibly if we could? Oh, oh, that's big.
Speaker 1: Start up front with hypothetical to you know, like the
Speaker 1: reason this is like also kind of a touchy subject
Speaker 1: is that there's this company out there that is doingness,
Speaker 1: but with the wooly mammoth right, it is really happening,
Speaker 1: like it is moving forward, it is happening, like they
Speaker 1: conducted me last year to ask if I would like
Speaker 1: get involved Um, and I said no because I was
Speaker 1: like just like the science, the science is there, like
Speaker 1: it's not a question of like is this possible? Can
Speaker 1: we do it? Like the answer is like for sure,
Speaker 1: it's an amazing feat of science, but like yeah, we
Speaker 1: can do it. Should we do it? And will it
Speaker 1: actually contribute to like I met mitigation, which is one
Speaker 1: of the things they're arguing. They're like if we have
Speaker 1: these animals like trudging around the Tundra. It can allow
Speaker 1: the soil to sequest our carbon better. Like maybe it
Speaker 1: should just like stop emitting, you know, greenhouse gases. If
Speaker 1: they invited me to be involved in that, which they
Speaker 1: probably will eventually. I'm sure I'm on their list, I
Speaker 1: would just repply with with a link to Jurassic Park,
Speaker 1: to the Jurassic Park and no further questions. Your scientists
Speaker 1: are so preoccupied with whether they could could they stop
Speaker 1: to think if they should? Now look at my chest hair. Yeah, now,
Speaker 1: look at my chest hair in my amazing all right,
Speaker 1: Dr Ry, we're going to get to know you a
Speaker 1: little bit better in a moment. First we're gonna tell
Speaker 1: our listeners a couple of the things we are talking about.
Speaker 1: It's a TRICIA episode. We're going to bring in UH, superproducer,
Speaker 1: Tricia mccargee, also, you know, daily zeitgeist correspondent, Trisian mccargee,
Speaker 1: to talk about the history of white supremacy in conservation
Speaker 1: and environmentalism and the history and present of it, and
Speaker 1: you know, just some of the amazing things that you've
Speaker 1: done and talked about on your show. Um, we're going
Speaker 1: to maybe check in with what's going on with Donald
Speaker 1: Trump's attempt the special master strategy, the special master gambit,
Speaker 1: sounds like a chess movie. There in court right now
Speaker 1: is a recording and I'm reading like a play by
Speaker 1: play on twitter, and is not going well for him wild.
Speaker 1: So I might talk about that. We might even talk
Speaker 1: about why, Um, nobody watches kids especially don't watch TV anymore. Plenty, Moore.
Speaker 1: But First, Dr Ray, we like to ask our guest.
Speaker 1: What is something from your search history? Oh Yeah, wait,
Speaker 1: I wrote this down because I, like I told you,
Speaker 1: prepared for this and so, okay. So the last thing,
Speaker 1: the last thing from my Google search history from yesterday
Speaker 1: when I prepared, was googling my hair stylists booking site. Okay,
Speaker 1: like I needed to book some appointments for my hairstyle
Speaker 1: is but not for me. It's because I'm a mama
Speaker 1: and I have two little girls and it is school
Speaker 1: picture week and I may not have dropped the ball
Speaker 1: on the preparation and, in particular, like I am a
Speaker 1: black woman, I have, like you know, a black husband.
Speaker 1: We are a black family. So hair is not necessarily simple, right.
Speaker 1: It's not like a little wash and style morning of right.
Speaker 1: It's like a whole, like wash day, blow dry, braid
Speaker 1: down like proper style for my kids, a skill that
Speaker 1: I did not have myself, and so do I have
Speaker 1: like a relationship with my hairstyles where I can just
Speaker 1: text her and be like s Os, like help me
Speaker 1: out right now. So I had to go the formal
Speaker 1: route and like find her website and get a last
Speaker 1: minute booking and I failed, and so now I may
Speaker 1: or may not be panicking about that. So that's from
Speaker 1: my search. And one of the school pictures. One of
Speaker 1: the school pictures Thursday, Tuesday. Look that gang. I know
Speaker 1: Somebod Y'all live out there and I know, yeah, we
Speaker 1: got we got all kinds of look, maybe somebody from
Speaker 1: L A can hook you up expense. I mean it,
Speaker 1: don't make it crazy, but like a little little brown
Speaker 1: heads need to be brained up, please, right, exactly. Let's
Speaker 1: not please somebody. I get so stressed out by school pictures.
Speaker 1: I have a six year old and a four year
Speaker 1: old and all the all these other kids like that
Speaker 1: when I see the pictures in the little yearbook at
Speaker 1: the end of the year, like they nail it, like
Speaker 1: for some reason they just they have a way of
Speaker 1: getting these other little kids to just be natural. And
Speaker 1: then my kids are always like they have their eyes
Speaker 1: almost closed and it looks like a dental exam, like
Speaker 1: they're just and I'm like, I know, I've taken pictures
Speaker 1: of these kids, I know that this is not impossible, but, yeah,
Speaker 1: I get very stressed out. So we do a lot of,
Speaker 1: you know, facial warm ups at home. Um, you know, pose.
Speaker 1: I just I just stopped them in the middle of
Speaker 1: whatever they're doing and say pose, and they have to
Speaker 1: give me a natur angles A. Yeah, I was the
Speaker 1: worst picture taker. I was too so I looked I
Speaker 1: looked like I was trying to funk with my parents,
Speaker 1: like with how bad my pictures were, like I told you,
Speaker 1: I don't like it. So you want me to smile,
Speaker 1: you'll get this. That's the most pain smile you've ever
Speaker 1: seen a child, a smile from a child that somehow
Speaker 1: says fuck you. Yeah, he'll be like, damn, he's only
Speaker 1: in kindergarten, man, you say all that with that smile.
Speaker 1: What is something you think is overrated? Oh wait, what
Speaker 1: did I write down? What's something? Oh, this is controversial.
Speaker 1: So I did not think I was going to jump
Speaker 1: right into controversy. Let's do it. That's something that, as expert,
Speaker 1: I believe is overrated. Is Recycling. Okay, okay, you didn't
Speaker 1: think I was going to say that now. I'm not
Speaker 1: saying don't recycle, but if you, if you learn more
Speaker 1: about that recycle, effective recycling is, you will learn that
Speaker 1: it is a freaking disaster. Um, the whole system is
Speaker 1: a hot mess and recycling does not reach or even
Speaker 1: come close to reaching the goals we think it does.
Speaker 1: In a lot of ways, there's an argument it does
Speaker 1: more harm than good, like it takes a lot of
Speaker 1: fossil fuel emissions to recycle things, like to turn like
Speaker 1: aluminum or glass into new aluminum and glass. It actually,
Speaker 1: like we have to pollute a lot to get that done.
Speaker 1: There's like so many issues with it. So a solution?
Speaker 1: Please keep recycling, but like, even better, reduce your consumption
Speaker 1: and reuse the things that you consume. So like emphasis
Speaker 1: on reduce and reuse. Recycling is overrated. Yeah, I was.
Speaker 1: I was shamed by my reusable shopping bags, like the
Speaker 1: thick plastic ones that a lot of the stores got around,
Speaker 1: like the thin bag bandwid the like. Well, now we
Speaker 1: give re usable ones out and I was just like
Speaker 1: I could make a submarine if I melted all this
Speaker 1: plastic down like full size sick. Yeah, and I don't
Speaker 1: throw it away too, because part it's like you can't
Speaker 1: recycle this ship, and I'm like I don't want to
Speaker 1: waste it. So then eventually I am able to use
Speaker 1: those a little bit better, but now I always bring
Speaker 1: my big ass like reusable bag canvas. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because, yes,
Speaker 1: I've I've been thoroughly just put into a state of
Speaker 1: panic over like how terrible I am with that kind
Speaker 1: of stuff. Reduced and reuse. That's the way. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: it's wild how much packaging stuff too, like says it
Speaker 1: has like a recycling logo on it. Yet you have
Speaker 1: to go take some things like specialized places. You can't
Speaker 1: just put that in like your city recycling cancer, I learned,
Speaker 1: you will die. I recently learned again. I just got
Speaker 1: a whole like proper education on this, so now I
Speaker 1: can speak as an expert. I've recently learned that in
Speaker 1: like several states in this country, it is legal to
Speaker 1: put a recycling symbol on anything even if it's not recyclable,
Speaker 1: and people use the loophole it's just good marketing for recycling.
Speaker 1: It's kind of like it's kind of like saying, if
Speaker 1: you can figure out a way to recycle this, go ahead,
Speaker 1: but we're we don't have a way. Yeah, yeah, it's wild,
Speaker 1: it is. It is so exactly, so American anyway. So, like,
Speaker 1: don't think you're doing something by recycling. It is overrated.
Speaker 1: There are better ways, reduced reuse at a minimum. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I just like to collect those plastic bags that have
Speaker 1: the big recycling thing on it, because it proves that
Speaker 1: I'm into I'm here to save the Earth. Many of
Speaker 1: those conscious yeah, what is something that you think is underrated? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I really am really into sweet potatoes. Um, I think
Speaker 1: that sweet potatoes do not get nearly enough love and play,
Speaker 1: and I don't mean like doing anything fancy with them.
Speaker 1: I don't mean like that they're versatile. I'm saying like,
Speaker 1: bake a sweet potato and eat it and you will
Speaker 1: be so happy with yourself. Like people don't have sweet
Speaker 1: potatoes enough as a part of their meal, and so
Speaker 1: I am like sweet potato, like I eat so many
Speaker 1: sweet potatoes I feel like I should like invest in
Speaker 1: a farm or something, like I have my whole family.
Speaker 1: Like I don't cube them. We don't do sweet potato fries,
Speaker 1: like proper baked sweet potatoes. My little trick is to
Speaker 1: like overcook them right. So, like, instead of an hour
Speaker 1: in the oven, like try it two hours in the oven, right,
Speaker 1: and then like use a bunch of butter and just
Speaker 1: like put it as a side on your dinner and
Speaker 1: like thank me later. You can eat it with a
Speaker 1: straw at that point, after two hours, you can just
Speaker 1: slip it up. It's like that is so good with
Speaker 1: a ton of butter and you do like feel it.
Speaker 1: It is filling and also liked detricious. Yeah, it's like
Speaker 1: that than like a baked potato. With apologies to the Irish,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like nutritious, it is filling, it's sweet,
Speaker 1: it's like it's your little Beta carot and there are
Speaker 1: other varieties where you can do like a Japanese sweet potato.
Speaker 1: You can do a purple sweet potato, like do a
Speaker 1: Yam or whatever. If that is actually different, I don't know,
Speaker 1: like you know, like yeah, but I'd like do it
Speaker 1: like thank me later. For sure. There's yeah, I love
Speaker 1: sweet potatoes and my family, a lot of people love so.
Speaker 1: My mom makes a Japanese version of sweet potatoes, because
Speaker 1: in Japan, which is like using like sugar and honey
Speaker 1: and soy sauce and sesame, that's like really good and
Speaker 1: I remember my my my black grandparents trying it and
Speaker 1: they were like what the fund is this and then
Speaker 1: they were completely turned around by eating it's called Die Gaglimo,
Speaker 1: which is called college potato. I don't know why it's
Speaker 1: called that. It's like the name of the recipe, but yeah,
Speaker 1: there was a video recently this dude, I don't know
Speaker 1: if he saw, there's a guy who does like who
Speaker 1: had never heard of a sweet potato before. It was
Speaker 1: like this viral video or the guy's like putting like
Speaker 1: a sweet potato through like a French fry press and
Speaker 1: he's like sweet potato, what is this and he's like
Speaker 1: it looks like a QVC segment. was like I guess
Speaker 1: I'll see, and he like pushes it through and he's
Speaker 1: like this is it's orange. I've never seen anything like
Speaker 1: this and I'm I couldn't believed that this person. It
Speaker 1: had to have been a bit because I refuse to
Speaker 1: believe that there's a human being who has any like
Speaker 1: sort of interest in potatoes. Who has not seen a
Speaker 1: sweet potato? But maybe I'm but I don't know. There's like,
Speaker 1: you know, you get surprised, like wasn't there that video
Speaker 1: like of dmx, maybe rest in peace, when you didn't
Speaker 1: know Barack Olama was the president? Yeah, or what Google was,
Speaker 1: I mean, but he was. He was also smoking crack.
Speaker 1: So I want to give him a pass that. You know,
Speaker 1: maybe time at a different speed. Yeah, time moves a
Speaker 1: different for M that's true. But there's no reason for
Speaker 1: stacy dash to not know that he died. But again,
Speaker 1: we had to put her you know, just sorry. Stacy.
Speaker 1: Had A friend in college who had never had a
Speaker 1: banana and like he knew what they were. He wasn't
Speaker 1: he like he was like screaming, but Nana, but like
Speaker 1: he was. That was his he and he never he refused.
Speaker 1: We were like they're so good, man, what are you doing?
Speaker 1: And he just refused to even try bananas because he
Speaker 1: wouldn't be like trying to feed a child, where it's
Speaker 1: like he's like I did the plane coming in for
Speaker 1: a landing, and he just personally particulated a reason why. No,
Speaker 1: he was just a quirky dude. Surprising there because again,
Speaker 1: like even as kids, bananas are like forced upon us.
Speaker 1: Like you watch a cartoon, people play tricks on each other.
Speaker 1: You like slip on a banana peeling central. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: central that my kids so many. Then to get constipated. Yeah, definitely. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it is not good for the digestive system. All right, well,
Speaker 1: we're going to take a quick break. We're going to
Speaker 1: come back and talk to you a little bit more
Speaker 1: with super producer Tricia. And we're back and we were
Speaker 1: joined by superproducer TRICIA mccarriygee too good to be here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so you, Um, you know we're reading through Dr Ray's
Speaker 1: work and listening to her podcast and you begged us
Speaker 1: to come on to talk to her about just kind
Speaker 1: of yeah, I mean that you put together a nice story,
Speaker 1: just like highlighting some of the really fascinating aspects of
Speaker 1: her work. So you want to change through it? Yes,
Speaker 1: of course. Um. Yeah, so, I was reading about your work,
Speaker 1: dctor a, and it was amazing. First of all, I
Speaker 1: would recommend that everyone listens to your podcast, going wild,
Speaker 1: as the name right, going wild with rays, named it
Speaker 1: after myself smart, and so I was reading, I was
Speaker 1: seeing all these really adorable pictures of you with baby
Speaker 1: bear cubs and with like snakes and Lemurs and all
Speaker 1: these other animals. It was great, Um, but as I
Speaker 1: was as I was looking through these photos and just
Speaker 1: reading about your work, Um, in you know, this hard
Speaker 1: science part of it, as well as environmental justice. Um,
Speaker 1: I was just thinking a lot about people of color
Speaker 1: in nature in these fields that focus on the outdoors.
Speaker 1: I love the outdoors. I really like long distance cycling
Speaker 1: and trekking and all these other adventure support type things,
Speaker 1: but it's so rare that I see other people of Color, Um,
Speaker 1: while I'm doing these things. So I know that you've
Speaker 1: also talked about this a lot. I wanted to look
Speaker 1: into why this is, you know, the history behind people
Speaker 1: of color feeling unwelcome in the outdoors and what we
Speaker 1: can do about it today. Yeah, you were talking about
Speaker 1: a book that you read, Black and Brown faces in
Speaker 1: America's wild places. Yeah, so it was just this book
Speaker 1: that I came across a long time ago and it
Speaker 1: was just the most simple concept. It was just photos
Speaker 1: of people of Color in nature, like happy walking, you
Speaker 1: know the greenery, and imagine that. Yeah, like and I
Speaker 1: was actually shocked to see it because it made me
Speaker 1: so happy first of all. But I was like why
Speaker 1: does this look weird? It shouldn't look weird, like why
Speaker 1: has society made there's something to marvel at, you know,
Speaker 1: what treasure. There are some really beautiful photos of Dr
Speaker 1: Martin Luther King and his family in recreating in nature,
Speaker 1: and you never see them right, like we always say
Speaker 1: the same we see the same picture as a nuther
Speaker 1: king and like these photos are beautiful and they also
Speaker 1: seem like like strange, like Oh, weird, like you know
Speaker 1: that family. Yeah, like like in like an in the forest.
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, it's just it's society has given us
Speaker 1: this idea that, like, you know, we've been socialized to
Speaker 1: believe that people of color don't exist in nature. Were
Speaker 1: like urban only. Yeah, and like internalized it to the
Speaker 1: point where I remember being like no, I don't do that.
Speaker 1: Like white friends would be like we're gonna go camp.
Speaker 1: I'm like no, I don't. WHO. I don't camp like this.
Speaker 1: It's not I'm not. I have no concept of people
Speaker 1: that look like me doing that. So it didn't never
Speaker 1: occurred to me to engage with nature like in that
Speaker 1: sense too. But I'm sure, like anything in this country
Speaker 1: we have. You know, we can all we can draw
Speaker 1: lines back to an earlier time where we completely misunderstood
Speaker 1: our relationship to each other or the land. Right, right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's interesting because I can remember even a few years ago,
Speaker 1: in ads for companies like Arii or Patagonia, all these
Speaker 1: outdoors brands. Um, it was all white people. And now
Speaker 1: they've slowly started to kind of realize that it's an issue, Um,
Speaker 1: and you see more people of Color in those ads,
Speaker 1: which gives me a lot of hope. I mean I
Speaker 1: remember the first time I saw a South Asian person
Speaker 1: in one of those ads and it was great. It's
Speaker 1: like another one, but yeah, so it's changing. But if
Speaker 1: we go way back and we think about this idea
Speaker 1: of nature in general, we think about the white settlers
Speaker 1: that came to what is now the United States and
Speaker 1: how they really just tore apart the lifestyle of indigenous
Speaker 1: peoples who lived on the land before then. They thought
Speaker 1: of land as something that needed to be protected, preserved,
Speaker 1: something that you live in harmony with rather than exploit.
Speaker 1: In this very capitalist settler mindset, that eventually became the
Speaker 1: norm and when settlers came, they introduced this idea of
Speaker 1: an untouched wilderness, you know, just trees and forests and
Speaker 1: rivers somewhere where nobody lived. And if we dig a
Speaker 1: little deeper into that idea, you just see that that's
Speaker 1: not true, because there are people who live with the land, Um,
Speaker 1: and they live on it, but it's still, you know,
Speaker 1: it's still respected. Um. And a proponent of this idea
Speaker 1: was John Muir, who is a very famous environmentalist. I'm
Speaker 1: sure everyone's heard his name, Um, Yep, and he said
Speaker 1: that this lend should be set aside for recreation, to
Speaker 1: fulfill an emotional need for wild places, which I thought
Speaker 1: was just an absolutely ridiculous statement because there were so
Speaker 1: many people, especially indigenous people, who are kicked off that
Speaker 1: land and like what about their emotional needs and what
Speaker 1: about their emotional fulfillment? Um. So, yeah, yeah, his, like his, him,
Speaker 1: constantly like romanticizing like the wild lands that were basically
Speaker 1: free of indigenous people, you know, really opened the door
Speaker 1: for this kind of like exclusionary thinking and like who
Speaker 1: gets to enjoy the environment? Like would always juxtapose like
Speaker 1: the beauty of the landscapes but these dirty faced, half
Speaker 1: happy you know, like just all kinds of like terrible
Speaker 1: derogatory statements about indigenous people, black people, and he always
Speaker 1: would say, like he's a quote that the indigenous people
Speaker 1: quote seemed to have no right place in the landscape
Speaker 1: which we saw. That kind of like extend to like like,
Speaker 1: especially like in colonial Africa, as like game reserves are
Speaker 1: opened up, the same idea of like, oh, people have
Speaker 1: lived here for centuries and not, I don't know, this
Speaker 1: is a theme park for white tourists. Like the Massai
Speaker 1: people were just kicked out of certain place, like there's
Speaker 1: a lot of history of just like the same thinking
Speaker 1: of like hi, nature, nobody should be here unless it's
Speaker 1: us just looking at it to just take a load off.
Speaker 1: And and that's also like so reactionary. Like I agree
Speaker 1: with what Y'all are both saying, and I think John
Speaker 1: Muiror is such a good example because he is he
Speaker 1: and his way are romanticized in our society because he
Speaker 1: like he was like thinking about solutions right, like there
Speaker 1: was a problem and he's like, Oh, a solution is
Speaker 1: to do this. But I I get frustrated when, like
Speaker 1: I feel like no one talks about the problem. He
Speaker 1: was trying to find a solution for right, the problem
Speaker 1: was that like white men on this continent like decimated
Speaker 1: all of nature and then at some point we're like
Speaker 1: Oh oh shoot, like like we all like if we
Speaker 1: don't stop and like preserve a little bit, we're going
Speaker 1: to have none left. I have an idea, like what
Speaker 1: if we asked John Muir to like create national parks
Speaker 1: for us? Like so, yeah, that was a solution. It
Speaker 1: one harmed people, you know too. It didn't like work
Speaker 1: the way we wanted it to. It was completely unfair,
Speaker 1: unjust and unequitable, but also like like a better thing
Speaker 1: to do would be to like have like not done
Speaker 1: all of that like development of the land and destruction of,
Speaker 1: you know, wildlife and wild communities in all places to
Speaker 1: begin with. And no one's talking about that because that
Speaker 1: was done by the same like Social Group of people. Right,
Speaker 1: like Teddy Roosevelt was like we need national parks. Teddy
Speaker 1: Roosevelt like killed countless animals, like we cannot count how
Speaker 1: many wild animals he killed across the world. He killed
Speaker 1: so many animals like for fun, for sport, not to
Speaker 1: eat them, right, and then he's the same person being
Speaker 1: like hey, like let's do a national park thing. Like
Speaker 1: that's being environmentally friendly. Like what like these people were
Speaker 1: hypocrites and it is very unpopular in my line of
Speaker 1: work to call that out. So I appreciate Y'all doing it.
Speaker 1: I appreciate Y'all like trying to really Um reimagine how
Speaker 1: we talk about environmental history, especially from the American perspective. But,
Speaker 1: you know, just in general, like our society and like
Speaker 1: the Environmental Movement does not largely accept that these people
Speaker 1: were problematic. Yeah, which is wild, because I remember at
Speaker 1: the time people were defending I remember, you know, the
Speaker 1: head of the Sierra Club in the summer was sort
Speaker 1: of like hey, if we're going to talk about Fort
Speaker 1: Bragg and these confederates and like renaming stuff, we should
Speaker 1: really look at people like John Muir and things like
Speaker 1: that and a lot of people like. We can't be
Speaker 1: applying these purity tests or trying to say look, well,
Speaker 1: look at all the good that he did, sure, but
Speaker 1: to then like ignore that and also say that there's
Speaker 1: the way the like the early conservation movement was even
Speaker 1: looking at like what people's relationship was to the land
Speaker 1: kind of put us put a lot of terrible momentum
Speaker 1: behind like this ideology. Now it is obviously worth like examining.
Speaker 1: Does that like tend like? So what's as it stands right?
Speaker 1: Does that tension still exists between conservationists where some people
Speaker 1: are like we just got to keep this not and
Speaker 1: that's it, just conserve that, versus people like, Oh, we're
Speaker 1: completely ignoring the heaviest. Yeah, it's a it's a mess.
Speaker 1: It's a mess, and I don't want anyone to think
Speaker 1: that like it's doom and gloom and there's no one
Speaker 1: to have hope, like that's not it. But basically, the
Speaker 1: model of conservation, like toutricious point, has always been a
Speaker 1: neo colonial, white supremacist, patriarchal model. Always like we don't
Speaker 1: have a new one that is like globally accepted. And
Speaker 1: so I would say like these days there are enough
Speaker 1: like revolutionary radical thinkers in the conservation movement that are
Speaker 1: like helping to reject these ideas. But in general, like
Speaker 1: conservation is still a neo colonial force, like both within
Speaker 1: and outside of this country. And I'll just like adding
Speaker 1: a little science tidbit right, like instead of the like
Speaker 1: social stuff, like one of the main science tidbits that
Speaker 1: is also super challenging is that the majority of wild
Speaker 1: animals and in particular, like large carnivores like I study,
Speaker 1: like like the big, ferocious, like toothy ones, live outside
Speaker 1: of protected areas, like most of them, like almost all
Speaker 1: of them. So it's like many of them live in
Speaker 1: a protected area, like if you go to yellowstone, you're
Speaker 1: gonna see some bears, and that is cool, but most
Speaker 1: bears live outside of yellowstone and outside of Yosemite and
Speaker 1: outside of these places, in places that are not protected areas,
Speaker 1: that are just like regular spots. Yeah, and so, yeah,
Speaker 1: and so it's like obviously the protected area system hasn't
Speaker 1: been a good model for many, many social reasons, but
Speaker 1: also for like actual scientific reasons. It's not like hitting
Speaker 1: it like the animals, like these, they're not like fenced. Yeah,
Speaker 1: these animals aren't like Oh, like I just stepped outside
Speaker 1: my batterary, like let me pull up a map and
Speaker 1: make sure. Yeah, yeah, it's like it's like largely not working.
Speaker 1: And yet like protected areas have popped up all over
Speaker 1: the world because a few of these men, like from
Speaker 1: a hundred and twenty years ago. I thought, like, you know,
Speaker 1: didn't think twice and just like went for it to miles.
Speaker 1: Your your point about like there there was a reckoning
Speaker 1: with the you know, White Supremacist John Muir and, Um,
Speaker 1: you know his role in founding the Um Sierra Club.
Speaker 1: So I just went to Yosemite with my family and
Speaker 1: it felt like we had traveled to like a monument
Speaker 1: to John near like all parks and trails had signs
Speaker 1: quoting his wisdom and there were, you know, stories about
Speaker 1: him coming to the land for the first time, like
Speaker 1: he had just discovered it. You know, Um, he looks
Speaker 1: like a confederate general. Uh, and it's you know, you
Speaker 1: can't decouple like his white supremacist viewpoint from all of
Speaker 1: that and the work that he's D fight for. Is
Speaker 1: it involves ignoring or outright being hostile towards, you know,
Speaker 1: the people who were already there. Yeah, do they have
Speaker 1: his quotes about how he spoke about black people in
Speaker 1: Georgia when he first encountered them? They didn't well trained,
Speaker 1: they were, as he put it. Yeah, like that's the
Speaker 1: funny thing. Is like, you know, we have this way
Speaker 1: of being like but all this other good stuff, but
Speaker 1: all this other good stuff, and that's true. That's true too,
Speaker 1: and so is this. And you have to reckon with
Speaker 1: all of that and you have to say how influential
Speaker 1: this person was and how much like even when they say,
Speaker 1: like well, he never like actually supported some of these
Speaker 1: other racists that like hung on to every word he said,
Speaker 1: it's like yeah, but he never actually denounced it either.
Speaker 1: And that and that, and that creates the space for
Speaker 1: other people to be like well, maybe. And he knew
Speaker 1: that creating protected areas was destroying communities and like you
Speaker 1: know whether it was like direct or indirectly killing people,
Speaker 1: like literally like like ruining people's lives. It was people
Speaker 1: of Color. So it was like that's great. Well, the
Speaker 1: very first like public park, it wasn't officially Yosemite yet
Speaker 1: because it was way back when, but it was where
Speaker 1: Yosemite is now, and that park was created by literally
Speaker 1: just slaughtering hundreds of indigenous people. Um to like have
Speaker 1: that as a space of enjoyment and like hey, what
Speaker 1: could be more American on this place where you ignore,
Speaker 1: like you're having a good time, willfully ignore how this
Speaker 1: space came about and go on with your day and
Speaker 1: and like. And let me add because, and this is
Speaker 1: like complicated for me as someone who like holds a
Speaker 1: belief system but still has to like work within the contract,
Speaker 1: like the system that my job is but like, like
Speaker 1: indigenous people still exist, like like they existed in abundance
Speaker 1: in the past, but like they still exist in abundance.
Speaker 1: And so, like it's not like they were slaughtered and
Speaker 1: died and now we have these national parks. Like, like
Speaker 1: folks deserve to have their land back, you know, like
Speaker 1: they're asking for it there, demanding it, like it goes
Speaker 1: without saying it is deserved. And so, you know, someone
Speaker 1: like me, I often struggle with feeling so hypocritical because
Speaker 1: I work in protected areas right, like I like study
Speaker 1: large carnivores and protected areas, while holding the view that, like,
Speaker 1: if I had any power here, I would give the
Speaker 1: land back. Like it doesn't make sense to me to
Speaker 1: like be ringing the bell of like yeah, we're doing better,
Speaker 1: we're creating conservation solutions, we have more animals when, like
Speaker 1: people and communities are still obstructed from from from engaging
Speaker 1: in and stewarding their land the way that they want to.
Speaker 1: I have a good feeling that, like, a lot of
Speaker 1: indigenous communities would choose to like do wonderful, quote unquote,
Speaker 1: conservation work. They Proba. We wouldn't call it conservation, but
Speaker 1: just like conservation is work on these landscapes. But even
Speaker 1: if they didn't want to do that, they should be
Speaker 1: able to do whatever they want. And it's really like
Speaker 1: attention that I have within myself. or I'm like okay,
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes I try to give myself a break
Speaker 1: and say this is the best I can do, is
Speaker 1: like do my job within the confines of the structure.
Speaker 1: But land back, in America at least, is like something
Speaker 1: that like, I think the people who believe in it
Speaker 1: don't necessarily have the power to make it come true,
Speaker 1: and that's really, really frustrating, because there are people out
Speaker 1: there who have the power and land back is quite
Speaker 1: literally anathema, like it's the antithesis of manifest destiny. It's
Speaker 1: like what manned back? Uh No, we got here being
Speaker 1: like God told me I could have this, and now
Speaker 1: you're saying take back no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: like I feel like yeah, like people feel like that's
Speaker 1: like unfair, you know. I have to say. Actually, to
Speaker 1: work in like parts of like like rural the rural
Speaker 1: American West, which is always an adventure, Um, and it
Speaker 1: is interesting because there's like a lot of folks out
Speaker 1: there like, you know, again, I'll use like some cattle
Speaker 1: ranchers as an example, who are really kind of grappling
Speaker 1: with the fact that like it's an uncertain future in
Speaker 1: cattle ranching right like just because of the economy and
Speaker 1: society and just the market, like it's just not it
Speaker 1: used to be super profitable and it's not. That guarantee
Speaker 1: isn't still there, and so a lot of folks are
Speaker 1: kind of like, oh, should our family continue to cattle ranch?
Speaker 1: Should we like sell our land? And I just like
Speaker 1: sit around there being like wow, wow, like a lot
Speaker 1: of people still consider this to be their land because
Speaker 1: they're great great granddaddy, you know, took it exactly. But
Speaker 1: like I don't see people having conversations about like the
Speaker 1: equitable choice here. I had to imagine there's a scientific
Speaker 1: argument for all of that, you know, like I can't
Speaker 1: imagine science should argue against like no, no, no, they're
Speaker 1: gonna build their good custodians of that land and we
Speaker 1: should there. No, yeah, there is a scientific argument. I
Speaker 1: mean worldwide, globally. One thing that that we know and
Speaker 1: that we have been able to prove as scientists is
Speaker 1: that poverty and environmental wellness are directly linked to each other.
Speaker 1: So we cannot necessarily achieve like a healthy environment without
Speaker 1: alleviating or eliminating poverty, and we can't alleviate or eliminate
Speaker 1: poverty without creating a healthy, functioning environment and healthy ecosystems.
Speaker 1: And so land back is a really good argument for
Speaker 1: alleviating poverty in many places, which thus helps the environment
Speaker 1: be healthier and stronger and more resilient. And yet it's
Speaker 1: like it's just like easy. You know, it's hard to
Speaker 1: break out of these molds which have been taught and
Speaker 1: to really decolonize this whole perspective and approach to conservation.
Speaker 1: But really, like, when communities of people are healthy and well,
Speaker 1: the environment is more likely to be healthy and well,
Speaker 1: and vice versa. Yeah, all right, let's take a quick break,
Speaker 1: we'll come back, uh, and we'll keep talking about this.
Speaker 1: And we're back, and just what you were talking about
Speaker 1: right before we went to break reminded me of have
Speaker 1: you guys watched the new bad bunny video that is
Speaker 1: about Puerto Rico, and it's like it has a twenty
Speaker 1: minute documentary attached to the end, but it's all about people,
Speaker 1: just the exact same thing. You just run into this
Speaker 1: logic over and over again of like people live here
Speaker 1: and then the forces of capitalism come through and just
Speaker 1: on the basis of Um, you know, profitability, just kick
Speaker 1: people off their land and it's like, I feel like
Speaker 1: we must be coming to a a breaking point with
Speaker 1: that logic being just the thing that everybody accepts as
Speaker 1: a reality. But it does seem to still hold sway
Speaker 1: so in so many different places that it profitability and
Speaker 1: you know, well, I have this, I have this rate
Speaker 1: of sale from two hundred years ago or whatever the people,
Speaker 1: a people are using on their giant cattle ranches. But
Speaker 1: that there has to be a way to break through
Speaker 1: that it feels like, and it does feel like that
Speaker 1: there's energy there. I just don't I don't know what
Speaker 1: the what the actual means of doing it are. Um, Patricia,
Speaker 1: you sorry, you were going to say something completely different
Speaker 1: before we started talking about bad bunny, but it's actually
Speaker 1: kind of related though, because yes, there is this idea of,
Speaker 1: you know, how far can capitalism go and exploiting land
Speaker 1: and exploiting people, Etcetera, and just fun thing I wanted
Speaker 1: to ask you about, Dr Ray, also pertaining to the
Speaker 1: previous conversation, was, I think often this this like, how
Speaker 1: to say it, I guess, this exploitation of land, or
Speaker 1: like taking land from the people who live there, specifically
Speaker 1: indigenous people in local communities Um, can be masqueraded as
Speaker 1: like environmental conservation, and so one thing I was reading
Speaker 1: about is this movement called thirty by thirty, which is Um,
Speaker 1: essentially a movement that strives to designate thirty pc of
Speaker 1: the Earth's land as protected by the year T um.
Speaker 1: And I found this really interesting because a lot of
Speaker 1: the land that people are trying to designate as protected
Speaker 1: are in the global south, Um, and you know, a
Speaker 1: lot of indigenous people do live there currently, um. And
Speaker 1: so we talked about this problem of land being taken
Speaker 1: away from indigenous people through manifest destiny here in the
Speaker 1: unit it states, and it still is very much a
Speaker 1: problem both in the US and abroad. And it seems
Speaker 1: that there's kind of this dilemma Um, where well intentioned
Speaker 1: people Um want to protect nature, but by implementing these
Speaker 1: rules they often just undermine, like the cultural traditions and
Speaker 1: values and livelihoods of the people that currently live there. Um.
Speaker 1: I remember I took a class on indigenous people's rights
Speaker 1: in college and one thing they talked about was that
Speaker 1: certain groups, Um, I think, like they hunt a lion
Speaker 1: once a year and there's all these conservation groups that
Speaker 1: say lions are endangered, who are not allowed to hunt them.
Speaker 1: But this is a tradition that's very much embedded in
Speaker 1: these communities that have been going on forever and if
Speaker 1: they had been the ones making the rules in the
Speaker 1: first place, like, we would have had a lot more
Speaker 1: lions than we do now. Similar to surveillance, it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, surveilling land with drones to make sure that
Speaker 1: people aren't breaking these environmental rules, but that can be
Speaker 1: so harmful to these communities. So I'm just wondering your
Speaker 1: take on this, like any potential solutions? How to we
Speaker 1: avoid this being another form of neo colonialism? Yeah, Trisia,
Speaker 1: you know, easy question, but no, I appreciate you can
Speaker 1: answer the one about Jurassic Park. Can we talk about
Speaker 1: bad funny now? I appreciate it, like a lot of people,
Speaker 1: do not necessarily think about the role of incarceration and
Speaker 1: law enforcement when it comes to conservation, right and so like,
Speaker 1: I will not derail us to talk about poaching or
Speaker 1: illegal hunting. There's another way to call it, but, like
Speaker 1: the incarceration rates of like men of color for killing
Speaker 1: wild animals, like, is very, very high and it is
Speaker 1: a huge, huge problem. And it is not keeping wild
Speaker 1: animals from going extinct, right, like locking up more, you know,
Speaker 1: I'll say, like black African men, is not like keeping
Speaker 1: the elephants around, right. And yet like every day we
Speaker 1: are incarcerating more and more people for using natural resources,
Speaker 1: you know, that used to be available. So that is
Speaker 1: actually a whole like project that I'm beginning in my
Speaker 1: scholarship and bringing students into to kind of use like
Speaker 1: environmental science and data science to construct like a you know,
Speaker 1: liberation argument. So anyway, like, I can't tell I have
Speaker 1: like some super radical views here, um, but for thirty
Speaker 1: by thirty, I do want to like, you know, like
Speaker 1: suggest a positive spin on it, and so you articulated
Speaker 1: it really well, the thirty by thirties, this little tagline.
Speaker 1: But essentially the goal is to preserve of nature or
Speaker 1: the wilderness or the landscapes by and it largely has
Speaker 1: to do a climate change mitigation. It's like if we
Speaker 1: are going to have a planet in an hundred years,
Speaker 1: like we actually need to like stop development on like
Speaker 1: a large part of the land, and thirty by thirty
Speaker 1: is also supposed to be replicated in the ocean. Right,
Speaker 1: like at least of the ocean needs to be protected
Speaker 1: right from like any kind of development or human influence
Speaker 1: by otherwise we're going to have a rough future ahead
Speaker 1: of us. And when you ask for solutions, I think
Speaker 1: a really good one, and I've contributed some of my
Speaker 1: knowledge to America's thirty by thirty initiative, is so you
Speaker 1: have like what we call like mixed use landscapes, right,
Speaker 1: like landscapes where like people live, there is like economic prosperity,
Speaker 1: but we are not being destructive on that land and
Speaker 1: we are not like doing harm to the land by
Speaker 1: using it. And if we can make sure that especially
Speaker 1: communities like have economic mobility on those landscapes in an
Speaker 1: environmentally friendly way, then I think we will hit some
Speaker 1: wind wind solutions there. So we can't do we can't
Speaker 1: make thirty by thirty just like, you know, more protected
Speaker 1: areas like in the same model, you know. But if
Speaker 1: we can consider like urban green spaces a part of
Speaker 1: that thirty percent, if we can consider, you know, like
Speaker 1: little stretches on the side of the highway, you know,
Speaker 1: a part of that thirty percent. If we can consider,
Speaker 1: you know, areas. You know, even farm land can be
Speaker 1: part of that thirty percent, as long as you're not
Speaker 1: like spraying pesticides and, you know, like planting like non native,
Speaker 1: you know, plants or grasses, like why not, you know,
Speaker 1: as long as you would allow some birds, you know,
Speaker 1: to land like that could be it. So there are
Speaker 1: some creative ways and I think in particular, like some
Speaker 1: community lead ways, like allowing communities to decide, like what
Speaker 1: is a healthy way to use this land? Um, it
Speaker 1: could be a really great way that we can meet
Speaker 1: those goals. You know. With that said, it's almost three
Speaker 1: so we definitely need to empower like like thought leaders
Speaker 1: who lead with equity and justice, like to be the
Speaker 1: decision makers here. But you know, I do know some people,
Speaker 1: some awesome dope, open minded, like radical people of color
Speaker 1: who are part of these initiatives and I have a
Speaker 1: lot of hope that that we can make it work right.
Speaker 1: And it just and it seems like so much of
Speaker 1: it too, is like when just thinking of John Muir,
Speaker 1: like just his initial idea of like save all this
Speaker 1: coordinate off, there's people there. Get him the funk out,
Speaker 1: because we have to keep this pristine like that flawed,
Speaker 1: just overly simplified way of thinking. It's just echoes constantly
Speaker 1: right in so many ways of basically not necessarily like
Speaker 1: that specific way, but to say we can't consider the
Speaker 1: people that live on the land for like as like
Speaker 1: that's just not even a thought that enters. It's just
Speaker 1: that you're actually in the way. And like this sort
Speaker 1: of idea of not considering like the totality of like
Speaker 1: what the human experiences as it relates to things, I
Speaker 1: think has existed. Like I was reading about how that
Speaker 1: people who wrote that like population bomb book had to
Speaker 1: come around and be like we were so fucking wrong. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like this was nonsense, like we just came up with
Speaker 1: fucking very Murian thinking or whatever. They were basically like.
Speaker 1: They're basically like it's over population in the global south
Speaker 1: that's the problem with this planet, not all the over
Speaker 1: consumption and irresponsible resource use from like Western countries, like
Speaker 1: we're good because we only have one or two kids,
Speaker 1: even though we destroy the entire earth, but like these
Speaker 1: people in large families that, like you, they would like
Speaker 1: they want these families, and then they came around there
Speaker 1: like yeah, so we were all wrong about that. The
Speaker 1: way towards that is about like having access to like abortion,
Speaker 1: like like racial equity, gender equality. Those are actually the
Speaker 1: things that we need to have to to like to survive,
Speaker 1: and it's funny how the like ignoreing those things. Uh,
Speaker 1: like it's always happening at our own peril, just for
Speaker 1: people to come back like, you know, good for them
Speaker 1: that they were like, okay, that was totally fucked up.
Speaker 1: We left so much it out to ignore that fucking take.
Speaker 1: But so many conservationists still kind of have this idea of,
Speaker 1: like the populatic, it's too much, we gotta do something
Speaker 1: about this, while completely ignoring the equality dimension of it
Speaker 1: and and understanding like the aspects of hegemony, egual oppression
Speaker 1: and things like that, and without acknowledging like how we
Speaker 1: got to this place of having so many environmental needs
Speaker 1: like that was driven entirely by like white male dominance,
Speaker 1: white supremacist patriarchy, got us to this place of trouble.
Speaker 1: Like you cannot, like you cannot create any other argument,
Speaker 1: and yet these people are like put the blame everywhere else,
Speaker 1: as we can't accept that, like those people that were
Speaker 1: the hunting that they've been doing for centuries. Is the problem?
Speaker 1: Not when we caught wind of some the resources killing,
Speaker 1: the killing one lion a year, like, man, we can't
Speaker 1: do that anymore because we won't have any lions left.
Speaker 1: It's like all the lions you'll killed during colonialism, like
Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of them. That was that was different.
Speaker 1: Sometimes like that, they're one lion a year. Argument is
Speaker 1: like when they're like, you guys got to use these
Speaker 1: different light bulbs, you're burning down the fucking earth. It's like, well,
Speaker 1: even that's not really the case. You're you're trying to
Speaker 1: put it on me about all this other funk that's
Speaker 1: going on. But the bonus on the individual, which kind
Speaker 1: of brings me back to what I was saying about recycling.
Speaker 1: You'll like it's like there is a system out there
Speaker 1: that needs to be changed and like please recycle, like
Speaker 1: keep it up. But like whether or not you aren't
Speaker 1: active in recycling is not as important about as whether
Speaker 1: or not, like these corporate machines can be redirected to
Speaker 1: stop harming the environment, like in full force. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I really liked what you said. Dr Worry about like,
Speaker 1: you know, green spaces outside of just a national park
Speaker 1: are a completely protected place. Like just thinking about all
Speaker 1: the Community Gardens in New York, like the Little Gardens
Speaker 1: on the block or the Little Park, and I was
Speaker 1: just thinking that that, you know, if we designate that,
Speaker 1: is nature too. It's an opportunity for people of color,
Speaker 1: communities of colors, to feel connected to nature without going
Speaker 1: on some big trip to Yosemite or Acadia, a lot
Speaker 1: of people can't afford. And I feel like the just
Speaker 1: the John Your quotes, just going back to him, treat
Speaker 1: nature like like he's describing it like a pharmaceutical ad
Speaker 1: for some Psych Med like it's all about like how
Speaker 1: it makes you feel, and it's it's almost still in
Speaker 1: that consumption. Yeah, you can, you consume this landscape, but
Speaker 1: that also puts it back to him to be in
Speaker 1: a position of power to design the landscape in a
Speaker 1: way that is, you know, subjectively beautiful and right, creating
Speaker 1: this effect, and it kind of like makes a business
Speaker 1: case for conservation. Like so we should, we should have
Speaker 1: like healthy, thriving nature so that like it can help
Speaker 1: our bodies, minds and spirits instead of like we're a
Speaker 1: part of nature, like we should offer respect to this
Speaker 1: planet that like was here before humans were, you know. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and I read that there's still so many things in
Speaker 1: national parks that make them unfriendly and unwelcoming to visitors
Speaker 1: of color. Um. First of all, of the visitors to
Speaker 1: national parks are White, Um, which is like totally disproportionate
Speaker 1: to the actual demographics of the country. Um. But then
Speaker 1: there's also just smaller things like, Um, the uniforms of
Speaker 1: park rangers can be changed, because now they look like
Speaker 1: police uniforms in a lot of places and that's not
Speaker 1: very welcoming to people. And there is all so a
Speaker 1: lot of policing that happens in national parks, like like
Speaker 1: they have like warded like game wardens and stuff, like
Speaker 1: they are law enforcement. Um. And there are, you know,
Speaker 1: there's been some cover ups in the last few years,
Speaker 1: but there have been like, you know, shootings of unarmed
Speaker 1: like men of color in national parks and protected areas, Um,
Speaker 1: just like some of the issues we haven't with the police. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and it makes me think too, Um, Christian Cooper, who
Speaker 1: is the bird watcher in central park who is kind
Speaker 1: of like attacked by this white lady, Um for no reason.
Speaker 1: I mean he was just watching birds and there's actually
Speaker 1: studies as well, or surveys that show that white people
Speaker 1: are uncomfortable with people of color sharing a natural space
Speaker 1: with them, which is like how racist do you have
Speaker 1: to be to admit that, to survey even you know well,
Speaker 1: and it kind of goes back to like miles was saying,
Speaker 1: you know, about like camping, like growing up it was
Speaker 1: like Oh, like, I can't go cap camping with my
Speaker 1: like I didn't even do boy scouts because, honestly, I
Speaker 1: was like that's not a thing. I've never seen somebody
Speaker 1: who looks like me do. That not a thing. But also,
Speaker 1: like you could imagine that like maybe we don't vocalize
Speaker 1: of it, it can feel very unsafe, like like black,
Speaker 1: like I'm black, so I will speak from the black experience.
Speaker 1: Like black folks are unsafe, like at the grocery store,
Speaker 1: like we are not safe like in regular places in
Speaker 1: the urban, suburban, you know, like don't let it be rural,
Speaker 1: you know environment. So let alone like under the cover
Speaker 1: of darkness in like a remote place, like our physical safety,
Speaker 1: like it's not worth it to go camping if you
Speaker 1: don't come back, you know, like it's just it's just
Speaker 1: not and so, considering we're still working to like remain safe.
Speaker 1: Just living our regular lives. Like it can feel like
Speaker 1: a huge risk. You'd be like I'll go ahead and
Speaker 1: have like a lot of stress and high blood pressure.
Speaker 1: And they get that benefit from nature because like as
Speaker 1: better than being dead. Not to say that like the
Speaker 1: outdoors is dangerous, but America hasn't proven to us that
Speaker 1: it's not or that we're welcome. I mean like a
Speaker 1: MoD Aubrey right, was shot and killed two years ago
Speaker 1: while like going for a jog like adjacent to a park.
Speaker 1: You know what I mean, like, like just for existing
Speaker 1: as a black person, racist people shot him to death. Like,
Speaker 1: you know, we get feedback, we get examples of how
Speaker 1: we are unwelcome or it is not safe for us
Speaker 1: to be in these places. You know, in order to
Speaker 1: disrupt that, I try to use myself and the people
Speaker 1: I know, and there are like some really great groups
Speaker 1: out there that create like safe experiences for people of
Speaker 1: Caming the outdoors, that break down those stereotypes that, you know,
Speaker 1: really try to prove that we belong. You know, like it.
Speaker 1: It can be a wonderful experience. You know, I camp
Speaker 1: for a living. You know, like to find the animals
Speaker 1: that I'm looking for and that I'm studying. Like I
Speaker 1: pitch a tent and I camp, often by myself. I
Speaker 1: am happy to say that there have been places that
Speaker 1: I thought I was going to be in danger or
Speaker 1: have a horrible experience, and I literally never have like
Speaker 1: the horrible racist experiences that I have are like in towns,
Speaker 1: you know, not in not in the outdoors, in academia,
Speaker 1: in my institutions, like, you know, in the cattle ranching
Speaker 1: towns too, though, but you know, like, not when I
Speaker 1: am pitching my tent Um. And so, like I am
Speaker 1: here to say, I understand the perceptions because they're rooted
Speaker 1: in reality and also, I hope, to serve as one
Speaker 1: of many examples that, like, the outdoors can be a wonderful,
Speaker 1: beautiful place, you know, to find joy and to find
Speaker 1: inspiration and passion. And you know, there are so many
Speaker 1: awesome groups out there like really trying to, you know,
Speaker 1: reimagine what equitable, inclusive outdoors looks like. HMM, well, I
Speaker 1: think that's a great place to close. We're so grateful
Speaker 1: that you came and guested on our show. Dr Ray.
Speaker 1: Where can people find you and follow you and learn
Speaker 1: more about what you're doing. Oh, so, I you know,
Speaker 1: I'm a millennial, so you know, we invented social media.
Speaker 1: I try to have a little presence there. You can
Speaker 1: find me on, you know, all the social media channels
Speaker 1: at Ray win, grant Um and, in particular, my really
Speaker 1: amazing I'm not just tooting my own horn. It's an
Speaker 1: amazing podcast that I have with CDs nature. It is
Speaker 1: so good. Season two drops September is phenomenal. It features
Speaker 1: a lot of my own stories from my crazy life
Speaker 1: in the wilderness, but also stories from some of my
Speaker 1: colleagues that I hand selected, some of the best wildlife
Speaker 1: ecologists from around the world. They may or may not
Speaker 1: all happen to be people of Color. Get to know them.
Speaker 1: They are going to share some of their wild dist experiences.
Speaker 1: So going wild on PVs, nature, Um, wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts, all the platforms. HAS IT September? Join us,
Speaker 1: and is there a tweet or some of the work
Speaker 1: of social media you've been enjoying? Oh yeah, no, I
Speaker 1: did think of a good tweet. And I don't know
Speaker 1: what the rules are about promoting brands, but if you
Speaker 1: take to twitter you might see that the company Patagonia
Speaker 1: has been trending, and that's because that brand that makes,
Speaker 1: you know, outdoor gear and clothes and stuff, has recently
Speaker 1: done something pretty radical by essentially um no longer being
Speaker 1: a for profit company where profits go to people, but
Speaker 1: now the for profit, the profits from the company, go
Speaker 1: directly to the planet, Um in particular, to communities and
Speaker 1: groups that are fighting for indigenous rights, to the environment
Speaker 1: and some climate change solutions. Is, dope, very cool, Tricia.
Speaker 1: A song will do that next, right. Yeah, Trusia. Where
Speaker 1: can people find you, follow you, and is there a
Speaker 1: work of social media you've been enjoying? Yes, so, actually,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if I'M GEN Z or millennial. I
Speaker 1: think I'm technically. Yeah, so you don't have social media. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: I was gonna say if you have to ask them
Speaker 1: in so gen Z. Okay. Um, so I don't have
Speaker 1: social media. Um, you can listen to more stories similar
Speaker 1: to the topics that you've heard me talk about on
Speaker 1: t DC UM, on my podcast, people place power. It's
Speaker 1: about activism around the world. Um. And yes, so I
Speaker 1: don't use twitter much, but I just opened it. That's
Speaker 1: why you're so happy, tricia. That's why you're so happy,
Speaker 1: because you don't use twitter. I found a video that
Speaker 1: contributes to happiness as well, and it's a video of
Speaker 1: a dog holding a bunch of carrots, like their hair. Yes,
Speaker 1: and there's all these rabbits and like a little pig
Speaker 1: eating it, eating the carrots from the dogs. So it's
Speaker 1: a happy, um natural video of I love how calm
Speaker 1: the dog is to like, the dog knows it's feeding
Speaker 1: the rabbits, like, and some rabbits are eating the Greens
Speaker 1: of the carrots. Someone eating the carrots. Yeah, I saw
Speaker 1: that too. A warmed warmed my heart. And the little
Speaker 1: pig that's in there too, it's like he doesn't even
Speaker 1: know he's different from the bunnies. Yeah, check it out.
Speaker 1: He doesn't even know he's different from doesn't matter. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know that. Take that's like he's they don't even care.
Speaker 1: The Sunny, unruined disposition of someone who doesn't have twitter. Yeah,
Speaker 1: doesn't know he's different. Long Man, last miles. Where can
Speaker 1: people find you with the tweet you've been enjoying? Find
Speaker 1: me on twitter and instagram at miles of gray. Want
Speaker 1: to hear Jack and I talk basketball? Check out our
Speaker 1: basketball podcast. Myles and Jack Got Mad boost uh, and
Speaker 1: then also if you want to hear me talk about
Speaker 1: my favorite reality show, Ninety Day fiance, check out my
Speaker 1: other podcast for twenty fiance. Yeah, read between the lines. Um,
Speaker 1: let's see some tweets that I like. The first one
Speaker 1: is from at perfect sweeties and it says I've been
Speaker 1: taking some notes and there's a venn diagram. That's British
Speaker 1: people and ants. On the left side of the venn
Speaker 1: diagram that doesn't overlap. For British people it says beans
Speaker 1: on toast. On the right side, where it says ants,
Speaker 1: that doesn't overlap, it says can lift up to five
Speaker 1: thousand times their own weight. Then in the middle of
Speaker 1: their overlap, the ven diagram reads weird loyalty to their Queen,
Speaker 1: innate instinct to line up single file and travel in
Speaker 1: a queue, takes things that aren't there's back to their colony,
Speaker 1: love for crumbly pastricks. Damn, that is God him. Love
Speaker 1: that one. And then the last one is from at
Speaker 1: Tal Muddic. I'm E D I see tweeted. The first
Speaker 1: time I heard of the go mad gallon of milk
Speaker 1: a day diet, I laughed my ass off. There's no
Speaker 1: way I'm halving my milk intake for a diet. I
Speaker 1: had that one too. Um. You can find me on
Speaker 1: twitter at Jack Underscore O'Brien and at Myles and Jack.
Speaker 1: I'm at boost e's tweet. I enjoyed. Uh No, we
Speaker 1: sa not. Now he sings. Actually, is how you're going
Speaker 1: to pronounce that now? No, we sobs. Um. tweeted unemployed
Speaker 1: guy at two PM. Man, the group chat has been silent. Um,
Speaker 1: and then rose at sleepless in Kentucky. tweeted this man.
Speaker 1: Poured me three shots thinking I was going to get horny. Sir,
Speaker 1: I'm about to start freestyling a response. Do not put
Speaker 1: those shook one's instrumental. Uh. You can find us on
Speaker 1: twitter at daily Zekeeis, right, the daily Zeygeist, on instagram.
Speaker 1: We have facebook, Fan page and website, daily zekeeis dot com,
Speaker 1: where we post our episodes and our footnotes. We link
Speaker 1: off to the information that we talked about in today's episode,
Speaker 1: as well as a song that we think you might enjoy. Hey, miles,
Speaker 1: what song do we think people might enjoy? There's a
Speaker 1: new Tam and Paula and guerrilla's song out that. I
Speaker 1: was like, what, I haven't heard Kevin Parker's voice in
Speaker 1: a little bit. It's called new gold. I think it's
Speaker 1: technically guerrilla's song featuring Tame Apolo, but look, whatever band
Speaker 1: you like, pretend it's their track, but they're all both
Speaker 1: on it. So here's new gold, gorilla's Tam Apolo. Check
Speaker 1: it out alright. Well, daily Zychis is a production of
Speaker 1: by heart radio. For more podcast for my heart radio,
Speaker 1: visit the I heart radio APP, apple podcast or wherever
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. That is going to
Speaker 1: do it for us this morning. We are back this
Speaker 1: afternoon to tell you what's trending and we'll talk to hell.
Speaker 1: Then Bite Y